EdTech Mega-Brainstorm#14b Chat Transcript

EdTech Mega-Brainstorm#14b Chat Transcript

December 3/4, 2005

[JeffLebow] Hey Guys

[scott] hi

[scott] chaos central here! how are tricks?

[JeffLebow] pre-chaos

[JeffLebow] What’s going on in ScottWorld?

JohnMartin has joined the chat.

[JeffLebow] Hey John

[JohnMartin] Recover yet?

[JeffLebow] from BS14a?

[JohnMartin] Yeah, the Mega-thon

[JohnMartin] Listened to it again today

[JohnMartin] I haven’t laughed so hard or learned so much

[JeffLebow] It was pretty easy on me … just sat back and listened most of the time

[scott] sick screaming kids, lunchtime, cold rainy Sunday – what more could you ask for?

[JeffLebow] some webcasting excitement

[JohnMartin] Can we handle any more of that

[JeffLebow] can never get enough…

[JeffLebow] Want to do a chaoscast Scott?

[JeffLebow] Get the kids on for some pre-show fun

[JeffLebow] perhaps some tunes

[scott] I wish I could be 8000 miles away making fun suggestion, 😉

[scott] BBL, lum

Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor has joined the chat.

[Jason] howdy 🙂

[Jason] i am a little shy with the skype stuff 🙂

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] the only way to find out is to jump in

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] or you can call into the teleconference.

[Jason] it’s funny…most people say i am shy until they get to know me…you might not be able to shut me up….

[Jason] oh, i have the skype….

barbara has joined the chat.

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Jason go ahead to skype worldbridges.

[Jason] shyness…setting….in…. 🙂

erin has joined the chat.

[barbara] no one can hear dave…

Art_Gelwicks has joined the chat.

[Art_Gelwicks] I can’t even hear him breathing!

[Art_Gelwicks] No nerd points for taking a nerd test online?

[Art_Gelwicks] :p

[JohnMartin] Geez, Thursday took a beating on poor Jeff

[JohnMartin] Welcome Jason!!!

[barbara] why do you say that? 🙂

timothy_mckean has joined the chat.

Art_Gelwicks has left the chat.

[barbara] oops we lost Art

[erin] he’s on the feed now, isn’t he?

Art_Gelwicks has joined the chat.

Lyndall has joined the chat.

[JohnMartin] Hey Barbara great to have you back

[JohnMartin] Hey Lyndall

[JohnMartin] Great job last week

[JeffLebow] Timothy, great to see you here. Thanks much for the email. Sorry we haven’t gotten back to you yet

[Lyndall] Hello all

[barbara] I have my bullwhip with me…ready to roll

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Welcome back Lyndall

[Lyndall] It’s nice to come home again

[JeffLebow] Any North Americans out there are encouraged to join in via teleconference…call 1-402-756-9000, access code 537267#

[timothy_mckean] Thanks… very excited to be here for the first time

[JeffLebow] Non-North Americans can do the same, but skyping out to the teleconference….1.9 euro cents/minute

[barbara] did we lose the audio?

dave has joined the chat.

[barbara] I am sorry dave the chat rioom is full

[dave] greetings

[dave] lol

[erin] hey defe-a

[dave] timothy… have you gotten you’re skype hooked up yet?

Lyndall has left the chat.

Lyndall has joined the chat.

[timothy_mckean] I just installed it about 10 minutes ago

[dave] great

[timothy_mckean] haven’t used it yet though

[Lyndall] I’m just going to listen today – my connection problems are still unresolved

[dave] timothy b. mckean?

[timothy_mckean] yes…

[JeffLebow] We’ll have to troubleshoot them sometime Lyndall… feel free to skype sometime and we can experiment

[barbara] Plymouth State in New Hampshire?

[JohnMartin] Catnapping

[Lyndall] Thanks Jeff – I suspect it is my ISP

[JohnMartin] Yes Barbara

[barbara] know it well

[JohnMartin] Oh really?

[barbara] Family there

[JohnMartin] What a small world!

[Lyndall] I will stay in the chat until I drop off again, but I’ll be listening

[Art_Gelwicks] Definitely more on the prof. dev. topic.

Jason has left the chat.

[barbara] I am puzzled as to why ppt is still considered an essential tool in professional development…comments?

Jason has joined the chat.

[Art_Gelwicks] Adult skills can be so ranged that it makes course development and execution difficult at times.

[dave] crazy weird for design

[Art_Gelwicks] Think crayons and construction paper. It’s that mindset.

[barbara] so can students’ too… i think that is where we left off last time

[dave] shh… barbara.

[dave] quiet now.

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] In my world 80% of my colleagues are not able to use PPT

[dave] 🙂

[Art_Gelwicks] I have colleagues that use PPT to design web sites…go figure.

[Jason] In my world, 80% can’t use powerpoint, of the 20% that do, they don’t use it very effectively….

[barbara] Hasnl;t it become a crutch?

[barbara] Pretty pictures vs content?

[scott] David Byrne formerly of the Talking Heads has been using PowerPoint as an arte forme!! Anyone seen it?

[erin] to be fair, pretty pictures vs. content isn’t an issue of how the program works.

[barbara] do tell erin

[erin] it’s how the program is used.

[Art_Gelwicks] As a speaker, yes it has become a crutch to far too many presenters.

[barbara] and used poorly?

[dave] powerpoint ninjas

[erin] exactly.

[Art_Gelwicks] Bring back overheads!

[barbara] it is used for reading remediation: they show it and read it

[barbara] zzzzz

[timothy_mckean] I’m looking into using acrobat pdf files instead of PPT to guarantee that fonts and other things aooear as you want them even if

[Jason] Ugh to overheads. 🙂 I am glad that I don’t have all the marker stains on my clothes and hands anymore

[scott] I can’t count how many times I go to talks where the speaker reads his/her powerpoint slides to the audience.

[timothy_mckean] you switch computers or platforms

[dave] i can read (albeit barely) it irritates me when people read to me

[barbara] I think we should organize a conference on technology and declare it a ppt free zone

[barbara] could it happen?

[erin] not to mention overheads separate the teacher from their audience, physically.

[erin] i don’t think so, b.

[Art_Gelwicks] A presenter should be able to present their topic effectively with or without PPT. It should be an enhancement, not the pres.

[JohnMartin] PPT drives me nuts but it is almost a security blanket for many

[barbara] art, yes

[timothy_mckean] exactly Scott… might as well just e-mail it to me and I can stay home

[barbara] yes

[Art_Gelwicks] Have a tech conference and hide all the power cables to the LCD projectors!

[erin] yes. ppt should be used to present ancillary materials, only.

[JohnMartin] Ha

[barbara] the best ppt I ever saw was one slide… the presenter didn;t need anything but a backdrop. he knew his stuff and engaged the

[Jason] amusing 🙂

[JohnMartin] PPT as a Bill Gates-way drug

[barbara] audience ina dialogue

[timothy_mckean] Like any tool, it can be used for good or evil

[Art_Gelwicks] This PPT presentation brought to you by Prozac.

[JohnMartin] PPT and CMS – same control freak issues?

[timothy_mckean] PPT… doesn’t make you a good speaker?

[barbara] absolutely not!

[timothy_mckean] 😉

[Art_Gelwicks] Just gives the audience something to look at while they tune you out.

Lyndall has left the chat.

[JohnMartin] How do you follow up on Thursday night

[Art_Gelwicks] I always wanted to do a presentation where the slides had nothing to do with the topic I was speaking about.

[barbara] and the amount of time people spend diddling with the colors and backgrounds

[JohnMartin] Oh dear lord yet

[JohnMartin] yes

[timothy_mckean] want to continue from Thursday?

[Art_Gelwicks] Slashdot picked up a BusinessWeek article about the “MySpace Generation”.

[JohnMartin] I had a Supt who nearly killed our staff with PPT poisoning

[dave] competent?

[dave] who can he mean?

[dave] certainly not me

[dave] must be barbara

[Art_Gelwicks] PTPD – Post Traumatic Powerpoint Disorder.

[scott] how about Mac vs Windows? that’s alway contentious. 😉

[barbara] dave suggested marijuana, i think…

[erin] summary: elgg sucks.

[erin] 🙂

[barbara] thank you erin

[Art_Gelwicks] Who’s he calling a professional?

[Art_Gelwicks] 🙂

[timothy_mckean] use of packaged tools, rather than individual pieces available on the mainstream internet…

[barbara] dead air?

[Art_Gelwicks] chirp chirp

[erin] the point about student disclosure is about connecting the academic and personal blogs.

[barbara] looking for the headset…dave;s cat took mijne too

[timothy_mckean] I think that it’s absolutely appropraite to have a dedicated educational environment..

[JohnMartin] Wouldn’t it be nice for a learner to be able to carry their learning artifacts with them throughout their learning career

[timothy_mckean] so that students don’t have to disclose their personal blogs in the classes

[JohnMartin] Rather than them being locked in a proprietary CMS or other one-way tech solution

[erin] john: they can. but do they use them?

[barbara] learnign artifacts?

[Art_Gelwicks] Aren’t those called books?

[erin] and you can have separate blogs without having a separate, closed, educational environment.

[barbara] and what about people who don’t want to blog?

[timothy_mckean] I haven’t used htem before, but can’t they archive the work that they do in them?

[scott] can they pass the class if they don’t blog?

[Art_Gelwicks] Think about this…500 years ago we have documents to study for history…

[dave] and those students who don’t want to study math

[erin] a closed environment doesn’t allow access by others, which can be really quite beneficial.

[Art_Gelwicks] what will be studied on us 500 years from now? Blogs?

[barbara] yes, but the question is about whether we are making assumptions here… that they are comfortable (cuz they are younger) that

[timothy_mckean] I agree with Dave…. when did kids start choosing what they want to do?

[barbara] they want to interacty with a class 9which they may not)

[JohnMartin] Sorry about the term artifacts – my former boss is doing his dissertation on electronic portfolios

[barbara] what is an artifact?

[erin] i don’t understand why blogging needs to be social.

[barbara] or hy our assumption is that blogging is social

[Art_Gelwicks] I don’t think it’s a matter of need…it’s a matter of is there a benefit from it.

[timothy_mckean] I think that the blogs can be private or social…

[JohnMartin] How can blogging not be social? Maybe we need to define what we mean by the term

[scott] isn’t an artifact a product of students’ work/learning that others can use/observe.

[timothy_mckean] I think that certain age groups certainly need the structure that the CMS provides.

[erin] blogging is just like keeping a journal. it all depends on who you show it to.

[barbara] because there are people who blog just for themseleve… we assume thatb thye want to link but some people don’t.

[JohnMartin] Ackk

[barbara] Remember when your older sister/ younger brother found your diary? Same idea/

[JohnMartin] Is blogging just another form of journaling? I don’t know if I buy that

[JohnMartin] It can be for sure

[erin] maybe learners want to be able to fumble around in private instead of for an audience.

[erin] john: why not?

[timothy_mckean] can’t one set up a blog on the computer, not on the internet… if they want to keep it private?

[scott] most “normal” folk I talk to think of a blog as the same thing as diary – by “normal” I mean non-blogger.

[timothy_mckean] Erin… is that an argument for an enclosed learnig environment?

[dave] hee hee

[erin] no, it’s not at all.

[JohnMartin] It just seems to me that blogging can be as much a tool for interaction and discourse as it is to be a stand along diary

[JohnMartin] Some use blogs as electronic portfolios

[erin] it’s an argument for teachers to not choose for their students whether their work is public or private.

[JohnMartin] Barbara Ganley uses them in her creative writing class

[dave] for what… that’s the question. what are we trying to teach. If content is becoming irrelevant, or at least losing value, what

[dave] are we trying to teach?

[JohnMartin] It is a way to propose, develop, refine and test our ideas against a broader audience

[barbara] And shall we go down the “language” path?

[JohnMartin] What do you mean barbara?

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Timothy McKean can we get you into the audio conversation?

[timothy_mckean] to me… the purpose of blogging is to make your ideas public… if you dont want it public why blog?

[erin] tim: many blog for themselves.

[scott] good point timothy

[JeffLebow] are you on the teleconference yet?

[JohnMartin] But to what end Erin? Wouldn’t a Word document be a safer less public alternative?

[erin] blogging online allows one to blog privately, and if at some later point they want to make it public it’s as easy as telling

[erin] others where to find the blog.

[barbara] Are we to assume that the language our students use in a blog (for their teachers, for the class) is their language…

[scott] Dave Winer would say if it’s not for a wider audience then it is not blogging!

[barbara] or a language that is created in order to please the teacher?

[timothy_mckean] why blog for themsleves….. right… why not just write in a word processor?

[dave] what does he know about the internet scott? 🙂

[JohnMartin] Which isn’t much different from what they hand in as papers in class, wouldn’t you say barbara?

[erin] well, for at least one very technical reason: to have offsite backup.

[Art_Gelwicks] If you write a blog and nobody reads it…is it still a blog?

[barbara] Yes it is different john because it is not being given to the teacher…it is being given to everyone

[JohnMartin] Very good Erin!

[barbara] and everyone can comment, dissect, shred

[dave] art… that was very interesting, would you like to elaborate on your position

[erin] current tools also allow users to decide who has access to what on a post by post basis.

[barbara] Dave’s cat took my mike too…

[erin] livejournal, for instance.

[Art_Gelwicks] Well, if I write a blog and no one reads it, how is it different than writing a Word doc and storing it locally?

[Art_Gelwicks] Is it all in the intent to share?

[Jason] hi folks! 🙂

[timothy_mckean] in a special environmant can one limit access to just the teacher?

[dave] trees… blogs.. they have so many things in common

[scott] thanks Jason

[Art_Gelwicks] Bloghugger.

[barbara] tech difficulties…need to move from the wireless machine

[dave] nicuh

[JohnMartin] And how many are aware that their blog is very public unless they take steps to restrict access

[JeffLebow] roger that

[JohnMartin] Assuming they can with their blog solution

[dave] that’s good, i like bloghugger

[erin] blogging also allows easy access from many computers.

[Art_Gelwicks] True…but you can do that with Writely and most web CMS as well.

[erin] you can write something, submit it, and go to another computer later to finish or edit without trying to figure out how to

[erin] transport the file.

[Art_Gelwicks] It still seems to me to focus on the intent to share.

[erin] yes, the question was about word vs. blogging, though.

[Art_Gelwicks] Those of us who don’t have to math divisible by 100 use Farenheit.

[JohnMartin] True, local v. global access

[erin] local vs. remote. if blogging was inherently about sharing, then everyone who blogged would share.

[JohnMartin] This is a classroom too !!!

[Jason] yay! 🙂

[scott] hey Timothy

[Art_Gelwicks] So again…if you don’t share, is it truly a blog?

[erin] yes, it is.

[erin] if you have a car, and you don’t drive it, is it still a car?

[erin] duh.

[Art_Gelwicks] So a blog is basically just a running text piece? Nothing more?

[scott] not if it’s out of gas

[erin] i completely disagree. blogging does not have to be shared.

[Art_Gelwicks] So the word document that I post on an FTP server on the web is a blog?

[scott] then it’s a bucket of bolts

[erin] publishing is d than sharing.

[Art_Gelwicks] And the PDF file I throw into BitTorrent is a blog?

[JohnMartin] The technology is still a blog, but in philosophy many would disagree

[erin] i can publish a blog without telling anyone about it.

[dave] no. i’m not saying that either

[dave] yes you can

[erin] and it’s still a blog.

[dave] but blogging is public

[Art_Gelwicks] And I can write a journal page in HTML and it’s not a blog by definition then.

[dave] wether or not people read ti

[barbara] it doesn;t have to be!

[JohnMartin] And did you lock your account behind a username / password or is it being indexed by Google?

[dave] or wether you restrict it

[erin] if i have an email account and i only use it for file storage, is it still an email account?

[scott] right Art, it’s gotta have the RSS angle for it to be blog

[Art_Gelwicks] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog

[barbara] or you have to tell people about it

[barbara] thank you art

[JohnMartin] But again – many don’t realize that when they launch a WordPress or Blogger blog that they are in the public view

[scott] If a troll doesn’t hijack a chatroom with false analogies is it still a troll?

[Art_Gelwicks] That’s true JM. As a web developer, I still think many people think of it as an easy way to update a site…not as an online

[Art_Gelwicks] journal

[dave] ROTFL scott

[scott] 😉

[barbara] To be fair, p[eople, dontcha think that the users may have hijacked the orginal intent of the blog to make it “educational”

[barbara] connectivity

[dave] which users?

[JohnMartin] What was the original intent and does an original intent ever stay in stasis?

[barbara] the people who want to use blogs as a tool to conenct others…

[dave] what was the ‘original intent’ that was hijacked?

[JohnMartin] I am amazed by the number of my students who have the accounts

[JohnMartin] Of course I do to – mySpace that is

[JohnMartin] Gotta stay hip, or whatevah

[barbara] to be able to write…just write for the sake of writing…but not particularly wanting to SHARE anything

[Jason] A lot of my students use myspace accounts….they told me to get one, I did, and suddenly I have 60 student “friends” added..

[JohnMartin] Is extremely valuable

[Jason] Instant community….

[Art_Gelwicks] http://slashdot.org/articles/05/12/03/2023230.shtml?tid=95

[dave] are you sure that was the ‘original intent’?

[JohnMartin] But sharing is another critical component of learning and evolving as an individual

[barbara] writing is not the intent of a blog?

[barbara] do tell

[erin] they might not want to make available to the whole class what they do in their educational blog, either.

[JohnMartin] Maybe it was never about the writing per se but about the ability to communicate in a different way

[Jason] My view: mySpace is easy to use…I think students like finding other kids…..

[JohnMartin] mySpace is about seeing and being seen

[erin] it doesn’t matter what it was about, it matters what it *is* about. if we’re going to move from teacher-centrism to

[erin] student-centrism, you can’t assume one intent!

[JohnMartin] Absolutely erin!

[barbara] and along with that you cannot assume that they want to be connected either

[JohnMartin] But I would argue that we lose when we move from one extreme to another

[scott] is it not the distribution/syndication functionality that makes “IT” a blog? If one write’s only for oneself, why have rss feed?

[JohnMartin] Teacher-centrism forgets the student

[erin] student-centrism isn’t an extreme.

[JohnMartin] Student-centrism assumes they don’t need guidance or learning assistance

[Art_Gelwicks] MySpace users must be 14 to join. TOS

[erin] it just means the focus is more largely on what the students want and need.

[Art_Gelwicks] http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=misc.faq&faqQuestionId=29

[erin] not what the teacher thinks the students want and need.

[erin] student-centrism encourages teachers to stop assuming they know what’s best for students.

[JohnMartin] I don’t disagree, I just worry that many seem to assume that the pendulum swings too far in the other direction

[erin] can you explain that further?

barbara has left the chat.

[Jason] I don’t think it is…there is no Microsoft branding

[dave] now i can write again

[dave] don’t know what happened

[dave] I just want to say. I agree.

[barbara] did we all fall off?

[Jason] Jason? Wrong guy…. 🙂

[barbara] You agree about what?

[JohnMartin] You, Erin and Dave all dropped out

[erin] i fell off but it was my fault.

[JohnMartin] We got worried

[dave] i dropped myself out. browser issue.

[barbara] lemmings jumping off the cliff?

[erin] lol

[JohnMartin] Can I come too?

[scott] 😉

[barbara] I had to switch machines

[erin] john: can you explain your point about the pendulum?

[erin] i love fark.com

[erin] but you’re completely right. it can be sooo inappropriate for a 14-year-old

[JohnMartin] Yeah just ask the folks in Australia,

[Jason] i am amused by it too, but…..

[JohnMartin] Blogs are blocked but they found the porn

[dave] you’re right john

[dave] like somehow the blogs are the problem

[JohnMartin] It’s the filtering system that so many institutions either choose or are forced to deploy that are often the root of the prob

[scott] so it sounds like the teachers need to be trained how to equip the kids to navigate the net-environment

[scott] who is gonna train the teachers?

[erin] should that be the job of teachers? or parents?

[JohnMartin] There is a difference

[Art_Gelwicks] In most cases neither one is ready for the job.

[erin] but who does the job ultimately fall to?

[JohnMartin] The teachers seem to bear the brunt

[Art_Gelwicks] It has to go to both.

[JohnMartin] But I would argue for the parents

[Jason] teachers. very much so….many kids don’t have access to the technology or the parents the skill to teach skills

[scott] Three cheers for Rupert Murdoch! harumph

[erin] unfortunately, kids usually learn how to navigate the web for themselves.

[Art_Gelwicks] Is it “higher” education or “hiring” education?

[JohnMartin] Don’t know – can we throw out tenure?

[JohnMartin] Or are you speaking of hiring in the form of student widgets?

[Art_Gelwicks] Better jobs or better people…which is more important?

[Art_Gelwicks] Teaching students for the new white collar factory labor.

[JohnMartin] I would hope better people would create better jobs but that may just be me

[erin] that’s why we have liberal arts schools and vocational schools. because nobody can agree.

[JeffLebow] Just another reminder… if anyone else would like to join in, you can use your phone (or cell phone) to call

[JeffLebow] 1-402-756-9000, access code 537267#

[Art_Gelwicks] It’s easier to be open when you don’t know who will “hear” you.

[erin] art: yes, but also when you don’t have to look the person in the eye.

[erin] and when there’s a little more of a filter between your arranging the words and then making them “heard”

[Art_Gelwicks] Exactly. So shouldn’t we be teaching the best ways to communicate using this medium since so may of the non-verbal and

[Art_Gelwicks] verbal cues are missing?

[scott] Well said Dave!

[Art_Gelwicks] Not only proper linguistic skills, but communicating in a conversational mode while conveying emotion and thought.

[erin] not necessarily, because that mode of communication doesn’t necessarily transfer.

[Jason] Don’t you have to make assignments as a teacher? Doesn’t that mean that any assignment is “teacher-centered”?

[Art_Gelwicks] Teaching to blog well is no different than teaching to speak well and write well.

[erin] assignments are teacher-centered when they’re based on what the teacher thinks is best, with no student input.

[erin] they are student-centered when the teacher considers what the students think.

[Jason] What is the brightline test for that, Erin? At what point do you have enough student input?

[erin] no one’s asking for anarchy in the classroom.

[erin] ja when you have listened to anyone who cares to comment.

[erin] when you have a feel for the general opinion.

[erin] you don’t have to ask each and every student what they want.

[scott] is teacher-center being used in a pejorative sense here?

[erin] scott: no.

[dave] i think it is

[Jason] Erin: do you have to take in account every opinion?

[erin] no, but you have to get an idea. sometimes, what you would have done anyway will work wonderfully.

[dave] ack. cat attack.

[erin] but sometimes you might find out you’re out of touch.

[JohnMartin] I would like to see what we use as a definition for student-centered

[erin] and teachers should not be obsolete.

[Jason] Erin: do you agree that students sometimes don’t act out of their “interest” as a student but rather other factors? Like…

[scott] good points Barbara!!

[Jason] wanting to do “easier” work, for example?

[erin] sure, of course that’s going to happen. but you as a teacher can tell when that’s the case.

[Art_Gelwicks] I agree Barbara…always ask the why.

[Jason] isn’t that being “teacher-centered,” too, then under this model?

[JohnMartin] It isn’t that we are trying to connect students, aren’t we trying to connect ideas or facilitate those connections?

[dave] damn cat. back now.

[JohnMartin] The intent of the discourse, whether verbal or written, is to cultivate and refine our cognitive connections

[JohnMartin] But in a classroom, physical or virtual, aren’t they connecting already

[erin] yes but on their own terms.

[scott] Does the student or the family have the right to choose not to participate in the online community?

[Art_Gelwicks] I have yet to hear an answer to why connection is such a bad thing?

[JohnMartin] Aren’t we leveraging that connected-ness to further the learning for that particular course/lesson/degree?

[erin] because not everyone is interested in connecting on this level.

[JohnMartin] On what level though?

[Art_Gelwicks] But aren’t you also worried then about losing those who are?

[erin] no, because if people are interested in connecting they’ll do it on their own. on their own terms. using their own tools.

[Jason] Should we not use the Internet of a family doesn’t like it?

[Art_Gelwicks] So is there a place for it in the school?

[JohnMartin] So then what is the purpose of a classroom?

[JohnMartin] What about those who disengage from class because they are unable to vie with their more vocal peers?

[scott] Those who refuse to particpate in the online community should be taken to village gates and banished!! 😉

[JohnMartin] Is that dis-connection healthy?

[JohnMartin] Technology is not a panacea, but it is another tool

[Art_Gelwicks] Living near Amish country I truly appreciate that connectivity is a choice…but even the Amish provide their teens an

[erin] it’s not up to us to determine what’s healthy or not. it’s up to us to provide access to tools.

[scott] Dave Winer said that about conference sessions first!

[Art_Gelwicks] opportunity to be exposed to the world and decide on their own.

[erin] yes.

[Jason] If we say that, can’t we say that about all technologies? Like…books, too? We shouldn’t force students to read certain

[Jason] books?

[JohnMartin] Calculus!!!

[JohnMartin] Hated it

[Art_Gelwicks] What’s the general then?

[JohnMartin] then apply to their future learning opportunities?

[Jason] I don’t think blogging is specific at all….it is general….

[erin] john: yes! but forcing them to blog, assigning them blogs, is not simply equipping them with tools.

[Art_Gelwicks] Learn how to write in a chronological, conversational tone?

[Jason] Teaching someone how to fingerprint? Specific

[Jason] Learning how to respond to other’s ideas?

[Art_Gelwicks] Dusting for them is much more fun.

[erin] blogging uses a very specific skill set.

[Art_Gelwicks] How so?

[Jason] They might not be blogging, but they might be writing for others….

[Jason] Barbara: if we can say that, why can’t we say that about SPEAKING or READING or WRITING?

[Art_Gelwicks] Lots of assumptions were made for me in school as to the skills I would need…like long division.

[barbara] Jason?

[Jason] Yes? 🙂

[Art_Gelwicks] I have to say Barbara…you are definitely making us think about the why for the tech. THANK YOU!!!!

[erin] speaking, reading, and writing are basic skills.

[Jason] Yeah, this is a great discussion!!!!!

[Art_Gelwicks] Should an instructor have a stable of tools at their disposal?

[Jason] Erin….you never answers what skill set is extra for blogging…..

[erin] like the primary colors. you equip people with basic skills, and show them how to mix them to learn other skills. like secondary

[erin] colors

[Art_Gelwicks] Blogging, wiki, HTML, word, etc. that they can use depending on the student’s needs?

[erin] sorry, i’ve got a couple of different discussions going.

[erin] blogging requires computer/typing skills.

[Jason] So, then, Erin, you would be against a teacher requiring that a paper be typed?

[erin] yes.

[Jason] Or an essay test be readable?

[erin] readble does not mean typed.

[Art_Gelwicks] Yes…but typing and core computer literacy should be considered a basic skill.

[JohnMartin] What if I don’t like writing, what is my option then?

[Jason] Art: I couldn’t agree more.

[Jason] Or if I …prefer…. speaking out loud?

[Art_Gelwicks] A well rounded individual should be able to communicate effectively in a number of medium.

[dave] agreed

[Jason] Or…at least be exposed to a number of medium

[erin] i’m not arguing for anarchy. many options exist between anarchy and fascism.

[Jason] Or…be challenged to work inside of a number of medium

[Art_Gelwicks] Many bloggers can’t speak worth a darn.

[Art_Gelwicks] (And you should see their handwriting!)

[dave] erin. are you arguing for anarchy?

[JohnMartin] What would be considered basic skills for the 21st century citizen?

[Jason] I guess I wonder, Erin, what your practical world looks like…

[JohnMartin] Awww, Jeff!!!!

[Jason] We talk about choice but we rarely define what that means practically….

[Art_Gelwicks] tYPING wITHOUT thE cAPS lOCK oN sHOULD bE a bASIC sKILL.

[Art_Gelwicks] Suck it up.

[Jason] wHAT dO yOU mEAN?

[Jason] 🙂

[dave] *whip*

[scott] Thanks Jeff in Ann Arbor

[dave] enough of the caps lock

[Jason] OR EVEN IN ALL CAPS….THAT’S BASIC TOO

[Art_Gelwicks] 😛

[erin] allowing student input doesn’t mean we’re going to cut them loose totally.

[Art_Gelwicks] Jeff in Ann Arbor…good job as always!

[Jason] What does it mean, then? What does the practical lesson look like?

[dave] *whip* *whip*

[Art_Gelwicks] You can count that one, Barbara.

[erin] it means considering what student think. not what a teacher thinks they should think.

[Jason] I repeat…that is a nice way to argue in a platitude, but what does the practical lesson look like?

[JohnMartin] They can live with it

[barbara] i am being practical

[JohnMartin] This is good stuff

[erin] that’s the point – you can’t make a generalization like that.

[dave] yes. this is good.

[erin] i can’t say that any one way works for everybody.

[barbara] right

[dave] right

[Jason] How about demonstrating one way? I want to see this practically.

[Art_Gelwicks] These things need to be sponsored by Starbucks.

[scott] This was brilliant, thanks everyone!!

[erin] okay, here you go.

[Jason] sweet 🙂

[dave] cheers all… have a good rest of your day scott

[erin] a high school english ap teacher requires certain books be studied duringthe course of the semester.

[erin] but also provides a list of other books that may be substituted upon consultation with the teacher.

[Art_Gelwicks] All brainstorm…all the time…24/7

[erin] and allows students to bring books not on the list to the teacher for consideration.

[JohnMartin] Do we get t-shirts for this?

[Jason] So, no book is required? Just books?

[Art_Gelwicks] Dave’s a big meanie.

[dave] tshirts are in your email account

[JeffLebow] We gotta get Tshirts

[JohnMartin] Oh yeah, forgot that

[dave] yes. i am.

[JohnMartin] Where’s the logo?

[Art_Gelwicks] Wasn’t that the language with the turtle?

[erin] i said at the beginning: certain books are required.

[JohnMartin] Remember that technology is the means not the end

[JeffLebow] And the 24/7 brainstorm channel may not be so far away…. all we need are lots of webcast literate hosts

[Art_Gelwicks] But if they use a paper book or an e-text it doesn’t matter, right?

[JohnMartin] Sometimes even I forget that

[Jason] Well, based on your argument, that would be wrong. Any mandatory requirement is “teacher-centered”

[erin] no, the lack of respecting student input is teacher centered.

[Jason] It’s Saturday night? 🙂

[Art_Gelwicks] Don’t forget the chat room crew!

[scott] Sunday afternoon 😉

[Jason] But, based on what you say above…you are arguing that I wouldn’t be respecting student opinion if I choose a book

[JohnMartin] booyahh

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Sorry scott I need to remember all my audience.

[JohnMartin] Deep breaths barbara

[JohnMartin] TMI

[scott] Great sign-off Jeff

[Jason] If a student doesn’t like a book that I assign, shouldn’t that mean choice, under your argument?

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Good night all it’s been something special.

[erin] no, you don’t have to allow all choice or no choice.

[Art_Gelwicks] 😀

[JohnMartin] Night Jeff

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Thanks Scott, I look forward to speaking live again some day.

Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor has left the chat.

[Jason] What is the bright line for that? At what point are you paying “enough” attention to student opinion on their learning?

[Jason] (BTW, I am playing devil’s advocate here…I give a lot of choice with my students, maybe not as much as Erin would argue is

[Jason] good, but…)

[erin] bleh, my headset’s not working. can i call the number still?

[JeffLebow] sure

[Jason] whoa!

[JohnMartin] There she is

[Art_Gelwicks] No good on the skype. Dave’s gonna get yanked through the phone.

[JohnMartin] Way to go Erin

[Jason] Hi Erin! 🙂

[scott] Barbara keeps gettin getting interupted. That’s not cricket. ;(

[dave] you’re right scott

[dave] my bad

[Jason] I require that every “paper” be typed….not daily assignment like things….

[JohnMartin] PPV – King of the ETT Ring

[JohnMartin] How is this different for K-12 than for higher ed?

[Jason] but, part of the point is that we are TEACHING the interaction with the technology

[JohnMartin] But the student is usually frustrated because they can’t use these technologies

[JohnMartin] So many of our students live this stuff

[JohnMartin] Maybe not Blackboard/WebCT but the tools for communicating

[barbara] not all john

[barbara] not all

[Jason] then it is even more important that we expose students to it

[JohnMartin] True not all students but more and more every day

[barbara] aaargh! who says?

[JohnMartin] My experience with the students I encounter at PSU and those that I worked with during my time in K-12

[Jason] i do. 🙂 sorry but i am a professional educator and these are technologies that i use along with speaking, and listening and

[timothy_mckean] Barbara, I tihnk that John may be reffering to yournger students…

[Jason] writing and reading and small group and large group communication and…..

[JohnMartin] No it’s not scientific but if it is occuring in rural NH – it’s likely to be occuring elsewhere

[JohnMartin] I have students who come to me frustrated with the fact that their professors won’t accept electronic submissions,

[Jason] Oh, and so does the State of Montana. 🙂 I have technology standards that I am expected to integrate in my class, along with

[Jason] my social studies content.

[JohnMartin] There are those as well

[JohnMartin] Why is teaching separate from communicating?

[JohnMartin] We’re not talking a dating service here, we’re talking about discourse

[Jason] snowing here too: http://www.carroll.edu/about/webcam/index.cc

[Jason] 🙂

[JohnMartin] I want snow!

[JohnMartin] By board is lonely

[Jason] i want it to go away 🙂

[JohnMartin] Send it to me!!!

scott has left the chat.

[Jason] okay, my wife is starting to make the sad eyes at me…i’m going to take off. GREAT discussion tonight folks…thank you for

[Jason] the intelligent debate

[JohnMartin] 4 8 15 16 23 42

[Jason] hee hee

[Art_Gelwicks] Thanks a bunch Jason!

[Jason] adios!

[JohnMartin] Mine went to bed in disgust

guest-0478 has joined the chat.

[dave] i love that guest guy

[Art_Gelwicks] Mine’s been alseep for 2 hours. Wrote me off a while ago.

[JohnMartin] She’s thinks I’m having an online affair 😉

Jason has left the chat.

[guest-0478] how do you message directly to someone in the chatte roome?

[dave] you are john

[dave] carefully

[JohnMartin] use /msg username

[JohnMartin] But send a non-flame test first!!!

[dave] barbara are you accusing us of negligence?

[barbara] just you

[barbara] 🙂

[dave] lovely to chat with you as always barbara… too many people who think agreeing with people is some kind of virtue

[JohnMartin] group think?

[JohnMartin] Me too barbara

[barbara] and you aren’t negligent

[timothy_mckean] constant assessment isa HUGE part of teaching.

[JohnMartin] So Barbara, do you have a blog?

[JohnMartin] Just wondering if you post on these thoughts

[timothy_mckean] Barbara give me an interesting idea.. is there a difference between teaching our students and teach our coleagues…

[timothy_mckean] maybe somthing for another show?

[JohnMartin] Should there be a difference?

[timothy_mckean] I think so..

[timothy_mckean] How do you introduce or persuade other teachers to look at technologies…

[guest-0478] Who is the guy talking (who talked to the superintendant recently)?

[timothy_mckean] with kids you can use the tech to teach core content…

[JohnMartin] The same way we persuade our students, we model!

[dave] twas art gelwicks

[timothy_mckean] I think it’s great when faculty get excited about somthing personally first.. tn hethey begin to find…

[timothy_mckean] appliactions in the classroom.

[JohnMartin] I agree, but where do they first encounter something to get excited about

[timothy_mckean] from us?

[JohnMartin] As an tech, I see my job as providing resources that they can choose to employ

[JohnMartin] I try not to prescribe unless asked

[timothy_mckean] I guess that’s the question… do we have a roale cuheerncisng othto er ten ciniflnsider tech

[JohnMartin] Assuming they aren’t trying to do what Barbara just suggested, then I might save them some pain

[timothy_mckean] that was messy… sorry

[JohnMartin] No worries

[timothy_mckean] I can’t even tell what I wrote

[JohnMartin] Sounds like my kids

[JohnMartin] NOPE

[JohnMartin] Tell her to read your blog

[JohnMartin] Yup

[JohnMartin] I haven’t named names yet Dave 😉

[dave] 🙂

[JohnMartin] It was nice knowing you DAve

[dave] indeed

[JohnMartin] I gotta go teach tomorrow

[dave] cheers

[JohnMartin] Sorry I couldn’t contribute more, my mic for my cell seems to have died

[JohnMartin] New mic virus?

[JohnMartin] I do worry sometimes that we exclude

[JohnMartin] Me too, good luck tomorrow – my class will be listening to the live cast tomorrow

Art_Gelwicks has left the chat.

[JohnMartin] You are welcome, thanks for everything

timothy_mckean has left the chat.

[guest-0478] Good stuff, thanks everyone!

[JohnMartin] G’night

[barbara] thank you for another exciting evening… I now why my kids like watching the WWF

EdTech Mega-Brainstorm#14b Chat Transcript

December 3/4, 2005

[JeffLebow] Hey Guys

[scott] hi

[scott] chaos central here! how are tricks?

[JeffLebow] pre-chaos

[JeffLebow] What’s going on in ScottWorld?

JohnMartin has joined the chat.

[JeffLebow] Hey John

[JohnMartin] Recover yet?

[JeffLebow] from BS14a?

[JohnMartin] Yeah, the Mega-thon

[JohnMartin] Listened to it again today

[JohnMartin] I haven’t laughed so hard or learned so much

[JeffLebow] It was pretty easy on me … just sat back and listened most of the time

[scott] sick screaming kids, lunchtime, cold rainy Sunday – what more could you ask for?

[JeffLebow] some webcasting excitement

[JohnMartin] Can we handle any more of that

[JeffLebow] can never get enough…

[JeffLebow] Want to do a chaoscast Scott?

[JeffLebow] Get the kids on for some pre-show fun

[JeffLebow] perhaps some tunes

[scott] I wish I could be 8000 miles away making fun suggestion, 😉

[scott] BBL, lum

Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor has joined the chat.

[Jason] howdy 🙂

[Jason] i am a little shy with the skype stuff 🙂

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] the only way to find out is to jump in

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] or you can call into the teleconference.

[Jason] it’s funny…most people say i am shy until they get to know me…you might not be able to shut me up….

[Jason] oh, i have the skype….

barbara has joined the chat.

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Jason go ahead to skype worldbridges.

[Jason] shyness…setting….in…. 🙂

erin has joined the chat.

[barbara] no one can hear dave…

Art_Gelwicks has joined the chat.

[Art_Gelwicks] I can’t even hear him breathing!

[Art_Gelwicks] No nerd points for taking a nerd test online?

[Art_Gelwicks] :p

[JohnMartin] Geez, Thursday took a beating on poor Jeff

[JohnMartin] Welcome Jason!!!

[barbara] why do you say that? 🙂

timothy_mckean has joined the chat.

Art_Gelwicks has left the chat.

[barbara] oops we lost Art

[erin] he’s on the feed now, isn’t he?

Art_Gelwicks has joined the chat.

Lyndall has joined the chat.

[JohnMartin] Hey Barbara great to have you back

[JohnMartin] Hey Lyndall

[JohnMartin] Great job last week

[JeffLebow] Timothy, great to see you here. Thanks much for the email. Sorry we haven’t gotten back to you yet

[Lyndall] Hello all

[barbara] I have my bullwhip with me…ready to roll

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Welcome back Lyndall

[Lyndall] It’s nice to come home again

[JeffLebow] Any North Americans out there are encouraged to join in via teleconference…call 1-402-756-9000, access code 537267#

[timothy_mckean] Thanks… very excited to be here for the first time

[JeffLebow] Non-North Americans can do the same, but skyping out to the teleconference….1.9 euro cents/minute

[barbara] did we lose the audio?

dave has joined the chat.

[barbara] I am sorry dave the chat rioom is full

[dave] greetings

[dave] lol

[erin] hey defe-a

[dave] timothy… have you gotten you’re skype hooked up yet?

Lyndall has left the chat.

Lyndall has joined the chat.

[timothy_mckean] I just installed it about 10 minutes ago

[dave] great

[timothy_mckean] haven’t used it yet though

[Lyndall] I’m just going to listen today – my connection problems are still unresolved

[dave] timothy b. mckean?

[timothy_mckean] yes…

[JeffLebow] We’ll have to troubleshoot them sometime Lyndall… feel free to skype sometime and we can experiment

[barbara] Plymouth State in New Hampshire?

[JohnMartin] Catnapping

[Lyndall] Thanks Jeff – I suspect it is my ISP

[JohnMartin] Yes Barbara

[barbara] know it well

[JohnMartin] Oh really?

[barbara] Family there

[JohnMartin] What a small world!

[Lyndall] I will stay in the chat until I drop off again, but I’ll be listening

[Art_Gelwicks] Definitely more on the prof. dev. topic.

Jason has left the chat.

[barbara] I am puzzled as to why ppt is still considered an essential tool in professional development…comments?

Jason has joined the chat.

[Art_Gelwicks] Adult skills can be so ranged that it makes course development and execution difficult at times.

[dave] crazy weird for design

[Art_Gelwicks] Think crayons and construction paper. It’s that mindset.

[barbara] so can students’ too… i think that is where we left off last time

[dave] shh… barbara.

[dave] quiet now.

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] In my world 80% of my colleagues are not able to use PPT

[dave] 🙂

[Art_Gelwicks] I have colleagues that use PPT to design web sites…go figure.

[Jason] In my world, 80% can’t use powerpoint, of the 20% that do, they don’t use it very effectively….

[barbara] Hasnl;t it become a crutch?

[barbara] Pretty pictures vs content?

[scott] David Byrne formerly of the Talking Heads has been using PowerPoint as an arte forme!! Anyone seen it?

[erin] to be fair, pretty pictures vs. content isn’t an issue of how the program works.

[barbara] do tell erin

[erin] it’s how the program is used.

[Art_Gelwicks] As a speaker, yes it has become a crutch to far too many presenters.

[barbara] and used poorly?

[dave] powerpoint ninjas

[erin] exactly.

[Art_Gelwicks] Bring back overheads!

[barbara] it is used for reading remediation: they show it and read it

[barbara] zzzzz

[timothy_mckean] I’m looking into using acrobat pdf files instead of PPT to guarantee that fonts and other things aooear as you want them even if

[Jason] Ugh to overheads. 🙂 I am glad that I don’t have all the marker stains on my clothes and hands anymore

[scott] I can’t count how many times I go to talks where the speaker reads his/her powerpoint slides to the audience.

[timothy_mckean] you switch computers or platforms

[dave] i can read (albeit barely) it irritates me when people read to me

[barbara] I think we should organize a conference on technology and declare it a ppt free zone

[barbara] could it happen?

[erin] not to mention overheads separate the teacher from their audience, physically.

[erin] i don’t think so, b.

[Art_Gelwicks] A presenter should be able to present their topic effectively with or without PPT. It should be an enhancement, not the pres.

[JohnMartin] PPT drives me nuts but it is almost a security blanket for many

[barbara] art, yes

[timothy_mckean] exactly Scott… might as well just e-mail it to me and I can stay home

[barbara] yes

[Art_Gelwicks] Have a tech conference and hide all the power cables to the LCD projectors!

[erin] yes. ppt should be used to present ancillary materials, only.

[JohnMartin] Ha

[barbara] the best ppt I ever saw was one slide… the presenter didn;t need anything but a backdrop. he knew his stuff and engaged the

[Jason] amusing 🙂

[JohnMartin] PPT as a Bill Gates-way drug

[barbara] audience ina dialogue

[timothy_mckean] Like any tool, it can be used for good or evil

[Art_Gelwicks] This PPT presentation brought to you by Prozac.

[JohnMartin] PPT and CMS – same control freak issues?

[timothy_mckean] PPT… doesn’t make you a good speaker?

[barbara] absolutely not!

[timothy_mckean] 😉

[Art_Gelwicks] Just gives the audience something to look at while they tune you out.

Lyndall has left the chat.

[JohnMartin] How do you follow up on Thursday night

[Art_Gelwicks] I always wanted to do a presentation where the slides had nothing to do with the topic I was speaking about.

[barbara] and the amount of time people spend diddling with the colors and backgrounds

[JohnMartin] Oh dear lord yet

[JohnMartin] yes

[timothy_mckean] want to continue from Thursday?

[Art_Gelwicks] Slashdot picked up a BusinessWeek article about the “MySpace Generation”.

[JohnMartin] I had a Supt who nearly killed our staff with PPT poisoning

[dave] competent?

[dave] who can he mean?

[dave] certainly not me

[dave] must be barbara

[Art_Gelwicks] PTPD – Post Traumatic Powerpoint Disorder.

[scott] how about Mac vs Windows? that’s alway contentious. 😉

[barbara] dave suggested marijuana, i think…

[erin] summary: elgg sucks.

[erin] 🙂

[barbara] thank you erin

[Art_Gelwicks] Who’s he calling a professional?

[Art_Gelwicks] 🙂

[timothy_mckean] use of packaged tools, rather than individual pieces available on the mainstream internet…

[barbara] dead air?

[Art_Gelwicks] chirp chirp

[erin] the point about student disclosure is about connecting the academic and personal blogs.

[barbara] looking for the headset…dave;s cat took mijne too

[timothy_mckean] I think that it’s absolutely appropraite to have a dedicated educational environment..

[JohnMartin] Wouldn’t it be nice for a learner to be able to carry their learning artifacts with them throughout their learning career

[timothy_mckean] so that students don’t have to disclose their personal blogs in the classes

[JohnMartin] Rather than them being locked in a proprietary CMS or other one-way tech solution

[erin] john: they can. but do they use them?

[barbara] learnign artifacts?

[Art_Gelwicks] Aren’t those called books?

[erin] and you can have separate blogs without having a separate, closed, educational environment.

[barbara] and what about people who don’t want to blog?

[timothy_mckean] I haven’t used htem before, but can’t they archive the work that they do in them?

[scott] can they pass the class if they don’t blog?

[Art_Gelwicks] Think about this…500 years ago we have documents to study for history…

[dave] and those students who don’t want to study math

[erin] a closed environment doesn’t allow access by others, which can be really quite beneficial.

[Art_Gelwicks] what will be studied on us 500 years from now? Blogs?

[barbara] yes, but the question is about whether we are making assumptions here… that they are comfortable (cuz they are younger) that

[timothy_mckean] I agree with Dave…. when did kids start choosing what they want to do?

[barbara] they want to interacty with a class 9which they may not)

[JohnMartin] Sorry about the term artifacts – my former boss is doing his dissertation on electronic portfolios

[barbara] what is an artifact?

[erin] i don’t understand why blogging needs to be social.

[barbara] or hy our assumption is that blogging is social

[Art_Gelwicks] I don’t think it’s a matter of need…it’s a matter of is there a benefit from it.

[timothy_mckean] I think that the blogs can be private or social…

[JohnMartin] How can blogging not be social? Maybe we need to define what we mean by the term

[scott] isn’t an artifact a product of students’ work/learning that others can use/observe.

[timothy_mckean] I think that certain age groups certainly need the structure that the CMS provides.

[erin] blogging is just like keeping a journal. it all depends on who you show it to.

[barbara] because there are people who blog just for themseleve… we assume thatb thye want to link but some people don’t.

[JohnMartin] Ackk

[barbara] Remember when your older sister/ younger brother found your diary? Same idea/

[JohnMartin] Is blogging just another form of journaling? I don’t know if I buy that

[JohnMartin] It can be for sure

[erin] maybe learners want to be able to fumble around in private instead of for an audience.

[erin] john: why not?

[timothy_mckean] can’t one set up a blog on the computer, not on the internet… if they want to keep it private?

[scott] most “normal” folk I talk to think of a blog as the same thing as diary – by “normal” I mean non-blogger.

[timothy_mckean] Erin… is that an argument for an enclosed learnig environment?

[dave] hee hee

[erin] no, it’s not at all.

[JohnMartin] It just seems to me that blogging can be as much a tool for interaction and discourse as it is to be a stand along diary

[JohnMartin] Some use blogs as electronic portfolios

[erin] it’s an argument for teachers to not choose for their students whether their work is public or private.

[JohnMartin] Barbara Ganley uses them in her creative writing class

[dave] for what… that’s the question. what are we trying to teach. If content is becoming irrelevant, or at least losing value, what

[dave] are we trying to teach?

[JohnMartin] It is a way to propose, develop, refine and test our ideas against a broader audience

[barbara] And shall we go down the “language” path?

[JohnMartin] What do you mean barbara?

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Timothy McKean can we get you into the audio conversation?

[timothy_mckean] to me… the purpose of blogging is to make your ideas public… if you dont want it public why blog?

[erin] tim: many blog for themselves.

[scott] good point timothy

[JeffLebow] are you on the teleconference yet?

[JohnMartin] But to what end Erin? Wouldn’t a Word document be a safer less public alternative?

[erin] blogging online allows one to blog privately, and if at some later point they want to make it public it’s as easy as telling

[erin] others where to find the blog.

[barbara] Are we to assume that the language our students use in a blog (for their teachers, for the class) is their language…

[scott] Dave Winer would say if it’s not for a wider audience then it is not blogging!

[barbara] or a language that is created in order to please the teacher?

[timothy_mckean] why blog for themsleves….. right… why not just write in a word processor?

[dave] what does he know about the internet scott? 🙂

[JohnMartin] Which isn’t much different from what they hand in as papers in class, wouldn’t you say barbara?

[erin] well, for at least one very technical reason: to have offsite backup.

[Art_Gelwicks] If you write a blog and nobody reads it…is it still a blog?

[barbara] Yes it is different john because it is not being given to the teacher…it is being given to everyone

[JohnMartin] Very good Erin!

[barbara] and everyone can comment, dissect, shred

[dave] art… that was very interesting, would you like to elaborate on your position

[erin] current tools also allow users to decide who has access to what on a post by post basis.

[barbara] Dave’s cat took my mike too…

[erin] livejournal, for instance.

[Art_Gelwicks] Well, if I write a blog and no one reads it, how is it different than writing a Word doc and storing it locally?

[Art_Gelwicks] Is it all in the intent to share?

[Jason] hi folks! 🙂

[timothy_mckean] in a special environmant can one limit access to just the teacher?

[dave] trees… blogs.. they have so many things in common

[scott] thanks Jason

[Art_Gelwicks] Bloghugger.

[barbara] tech difficulties…need to move from the wireless machine

[dave] nicuh

[JohnMartin] And how many are aware that their blog is very public unless they take steps to restrict access

[JeffLebow] roger that

[JohnMartin] Assuming they can with their blog solution

[dave] that’s good, i like bloghugger

[erin] blogging also allows easy access from many computers.

[Art_Gelwicks] True…but you can do that with Writely and most web CMS as well.

[erin] you can write something, submit it, and go to another computer later to finish or edit without trying to figure out how to

[erin] transport the file.

[Art_Gelwicks] It still seems to me to focus on the intent to share.

[erin] yes, the question was about word vs. blogging, though.

[Art_Gelwicks] Those of us who don’t have to math divisible by 100 use Farenheit.

[JohnMartin] True, local v. global access

[erin] local vs. remote. if blogging was inherently about sharing, then everyone who blogged would share.

[JohnMartin] This is a classroom too !!!

[Jason] yay! 🙂

[scott] hey Timothy

[Art_Gelwicks] So again…if you don’t share, is it truly a blog?

[erin] yes, it is.

[erin] if you have a car, and you don’t drive it, is it still a car?

[erin] duh.

[Art_Gelwicks] So a blog is basically just a running text piece? Nothing more?

[scott] not if it’s out of gas

[erin] i completely disagree. blogging does not have to be shared.

[Art_Gelwicks] So the word document that I post on an FTP server on the web is a blog?

[scott] then it’s a bucket of bolts

[erin] publishing is d than sharing.

[Art_Gelwicks] And the PDF file I throw into BitTorrent is a blog?

[JohnMartin] The technology is still a blog, but in philosophy many would disagree

[erin] i can publish a blog without telling anyone about it.

[dave] no. i’m not saying that either

[dave] yes you can

[erin] and it’s still a blog.

[dave] but blogging is public

[Art_Gelwicks] And I can write a journal page in HTML and it’s not a blog by definition then.

[dave] wether or not people read ti

[barbara] it doesn;t have to be!

[JohnMartin] And did you lock your account behind a username / password or is it being indexed by Google?

[dave] or wether you restrict it

[erin] if i have an email account and i only use it for file storage, is it still an email account?

[scott] right Art, it’s gotta have the RSS angle for it to be blog

[Art_Gelwicks] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog

[barbara] or you have to tell people about it

[barbara] thank you art

[JohnMartin] But again – many don’t realize that when they launch a WordPress or Blogger blog that they are in the public view

[scott] If a troll doesn’t hijack a chatroom with false analogies is it still a troll?

[Art_Gelwicks] That’s true JM. As a web developer, I still think many people think of it as an easy way to update a site…not as an online

[Art_Gelwicks] journal

[dave] ROTFL scott

[scott] 😉

[barbara] To be fair, p[eople, dontcha think that the users may have hijacked the orginal intent of the blog to make it “educational”

[barbara] connectivity

[dave] which users?

[JohnMartin] What was the original intent and does an original intent ever stay in stasis?

[barbara] the people who want to use blogs as a tool to conenct others…

[dave] what was the ‘original intent’ that was hijacked?

[JohnMartin] I am amazed by the number of my students who have the accounts

[JohnMartin] Of course I do to – mySpace that is

[JohnMartin] Gotta stay hip, or whatevah

[barbara] to be able to write…just write for the sake of writing…but not particularly wanting to SHARE anything

[Jason] A lot of my students use myspace accounts….they told me to get one, I did, and suddenly I have 60 student “friends” added..

[JohnMartin] Is extremely valuable

[Jason] Instant community….

[Art_Gelwicks] http://slashdot.org/articles/05/12/03/2023230.shtml?tid=95

[dave] are you sure that was the ‘original intent’?

[JohnMartin] But sharing is another critical component of learning and evolving as an individual

[barbara] writing is not the intent of a blog?

[barbara] do tell

[erin] they might not want to make available to the whole class what they do in their educational blog, either.

[JohnMartin] Maybe it was never about the writing per se but about the ability to communicate in a different way

[Jason] My view: mySpace is easy to use…I think students like finding other kids…..

[JohnMartin] mySpace is about seeing and being seen

[erin] it doesn’t matter what it was about, it matters what it *is* about. if we’re going to move from teacher-centrism to

[erin] student-centrism, you can’t assume one intent!

[JohnMartin] Absolutely erin!

[barbara] and along with that you cannot assume that they want to be connected either

[JohnMartin] But I would argue that we lose when we move from one extreme to another

[scott] is it not the distribution/syndication functionality that makes “IT” a blog? If one write’s only for oneself, why have rss feed?

[JohnMartin] Teacher-centrism forgets the student

[erin] student-centrism isn’t an extreme.

[JohnMartin] Student-centrism assumes they don’t need guidance or learning assistance

[Art_Gelwicks] MySpace users must be 14 to join. TOS

[erin] it just means the focus is more largely on what the students want and need.

[Art_Gelwicks] http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=misc.faq&faqQuestionId=29

[erin] not what the teacher thinks the students want and need.

[erin] student-centrism encourages teachers to stop assuming they know what’s best for students.

[JohnMartin] I don’t disagree, I just worry that many seem to assume that the pendulum swings too far in the other direction

[erin] can you explain that further?

barbara has left the chat.

[Jason] I don’t think it is…there is no Microsoft branding

[dave] now i can write again

[dave] don’t know what happened

[dave] I just want to say. I agree.

[barbara] did we all fall off?

[Jason] Jason? Wrong guy…. 🙂

[barbara] You agree about what?

[JohnMartin] You, Erin and Dave all dropped out

[erin] i fell off but it was my fault.

[JohnMartin] We got worried

[dave] i dropped myself out. browser issue.

[barbara] lemmings jumping off the cliff?

[erin] lol

[JohnMartin] Can I come too?

[scott] 😉

[barbara] I had to switch machines

[erin] john: can you explain your point about the pendulum?

[erin] i love fark.com

[erin] but you’re completely right. it can be sooo inappropriate for a 14-year-old

[JohnMartin] Yeah just ask the folks in Australia,

[Jason] i am amused by it too, but…..

[JohnMartin] Blogs are blocked but they found the porn

[dave] you’re right john

[dave] like somehow the blogs are the problem

[JohnMartin] It’s the filtering system that so many institutions either choose or are forced to deploy that are often the root of the prob

[scott] so it sounds like the teachers need to be trained how to equip the kids to navigate the net-environment

[scott] who is gonna train the teachers?

[erin] should that be the job of teachers? or parents?

[JohnMartin] There is a difference

[Art_Gelwicks] In most cases neither one is ready for the job.

[erin] but who does the job ultimately fall to?

[JohnMartin] The teachers seem to bear the brunt

[Art_Gelwicks] It has to go to both.

[JohnMartin] But I would argue for the parents

[Jason] teachers. very much so….many kids don’t have access to the technology or the parents the skill to teach skills

[scott] Three cheers for Rupert Murdoch! harumph

[erin] unfortunately, kids usually learn how to navigate the web for themselves.

[Art_Gelwicks] Is it “higher” education or “hiring” education?

[JohnMartin] Don’t know – can we throw out tenure?

[JohnMartin] Or are you speaking of hiring in the form of student widgets?

[Art_Gelwicks] Better jobs or better people…which is more important?

[Art_Gelwicks] Teaching students for the new white collar factory labor.

[JohnMartin] I would hope better people would create better jobs but that may just be me

[erin] that’s why we have liberal arts schools and vocational schools. because nobody can agree.

[JeffLebow] Just another reminder… if anyone else would like to join in, you can use your phone (or cell phone) to call

[JeffLebow] 1-402-756-9000, access code 537267#

[Art_Gelwicks] It’s easier to be open when you don’t know who will “hear” you.

[erin] art: yes, but also when you don’t have to look the person in the eye.

[erin] and when there’s a little more of a filter between your arranging the words and then making them “heard”

[Art_Gelwicks] Exactly. So shouldn’t we be teaching the best ways to communicate using this medium since so may of the non-verbal and

[Art_Gelwicks] verbal cues are missing?

[scott] Well said Dave!

[Art_Gelwicks] Not only proper linguistic skills, but communicating in a conversational mode while conveying emotion and thought.

[erin] not necessarily, because that mode of communication doesn’t necessarily transfer.

[Jason] Don’t you have to make assignments as a teacher? Doesn’t that mean that any assignment is “teacher-centered”?

[Art_Gelwicks] Teaching to blog well is no different than teaching to speak well and write well.

[erin] assignments are teacher-centered when they’re based on what the teacher thinks is best, with no student input.

[erin] they are student-centered when the teacher considers what the students think.

[Jason] What is the brightline test for that, Erin? At what point do you have enough student input?

[erin] no one’s asking for anarchy in the classroom.

[erin] ja when you have listened to anyone who cares to comment.

[erin] when you have a feel for the general opinion.

[erin] you don’t have to ask each and every student what they want.

[scott] is teacher-center being used in a pejorative sense here?

[erin] scott: no.

[dave] i think it is

[Jason] Erin: do you have to take in account every opinion?

[erin] no, but you have to get an idea. sometimes, what you would have done anyway will work wonderfully.

[dave] ack. cat attack.

[erin] but sometimes you might find out you’re out of touch.

[JohnMartin] I would like to see what we use as a definition for student-centered

[erin] and teachers should not be obsolete.

[Jason] Erin: do you agree that students sometimes don’t act out of their “interest” as a student but rather other factors? Like…

[scott] good points Barbara!!

[Jason] wanting to do “easier” work, for example?

[erin] sure, of course that’s going to happen. but you as a teacher can tell when that’s the case.

[Art_Gelwicks] I agree Barbara…always ask the why.

[Jason] isn’t that being “teacher-centered,” too, then under this model?

[JohnMartin] It isn’t that we are trying to connect students, aren’t we trying to connect ideas or facilitate those connections?

[dave] damn cat. back now.

[JohnMartin] The intent of the discourse, whether verbal or written, is to cultivate and refine our cognitive connections

[JohnMartin] But in a classroom, physical or virtual, aren’t they connecting already

[erin] yes but on their own terms.

[scott] Does the student or the family have the right to choose not to participate in the online community?

[Art_Gelwicks] I have yet to hear an answer to why connection is such a bad thing?

[JohnMartin] Aren’t we leveraging that connected-ness to further the learning for that particular course/lesson/degree?

[erin] because not everyone is interested in connecting on this level.

[JohnMartin] On what level though?

[Art_Gelwicks] But aren’t you also worried then about losing those who are?

[erin] no, because if people are interested in connecting they’ll do it on their own. on their own terms. using their own tools.

[Jason] Should we not use the Internet of a family doesn’t like it?

[Art_Gelwicks] So is there a place for it in the school?

[JohnMartin] So then what is the purpose of a classroom?

[JohnMartin] What about those who disengage from class because they are unable to vie with their more vocal peers?

[scott] Those who refuse to particpate in the online community should be taken to village gates and banished!! 😉

[JohnMartin] Is that dis-connection healthy?

[JohnMartin] Technology is not a panacea, but it is another tool

[Art_Gelwicks] Living near Amish country I truly appreciate that connectivity is a choice…but even the Amish provide their teens an

[erin] it’s not up to us to determine what’s healthy or not. it’s up to us to provide access to tools.

[scott] Dave Winer said that about conference sessions first!

[Art_Gelwicks] opportunity to be exposed to the world and decide on their own.

[erin] yes.

[Jason] If we say that, can’t we say that about all technologies? Like…books, too? We shouldn’t force students to read certain

[Jason] books?

[JohnMartin] Calculus!!!

[JohnMartin] Hated it

[Art_Gelwicks] What’s the general then?

[JohnMartin] then apply to their future learning opportunities?

[Jason] I don’t think blogging is specific at all….it is general….

[erin] john: yes! but forcing them to blog, assigning them blogs, is not simply equipping them with tools.

[Art_Gelwicks] Learn how to write in a chronological, conversational tone?

[Jason] Teaching someone how to fingerprint? Specific

[Jason] Learning how to respond to other’s ideas?

[Art_Gelwicks] Dusting for them is much more fun.

[erin] blogging uses a very specific skill set.

[Art_Gelwicks] How so?

[Jason] They might not be blogging, but they might be writing for others….

[Jason] Barbara: if we can say that, why can’t we say that about SPEAKING or READING or WRITING?

[Art_Gelwicks] Lots of assumptions were made for me in school as to the skills I would need…like long division.

[barbara] Jason?

[Jason] Yes? 🙂

[Art_Gelwicks] I have to say Barbara…you are definitely making us think about the why for the tech. THANK YOU!!!!

[erin] speaking, reading, and writing are basic skills.

[Jason] Yeah, this is a great discussion!!!!!

[Art_Gelwicks] Should an instructor have a stable of tools at their disposal?

[Jason] Erin….you never answers what skill set is extra for blogging…..

[erin] like the primary colors. you equip people with basic skills, and show them how to mix them to learn other skills. like secondary

[erin] colors

[Art_Gelwicks] Blogging, wiki, HTML, word, etc. that they can use depending on the student’s needs?

[erin] sorry, i’ve got a couple of different discussions going.

[erin] blogging requires computer/typing skills.

[Jason] So, then, Erin, you would be against a teacher requiring that a paper be typed?

[erin] yes.

[Jason] Or an essay test be readable?

[erin] readble does not mean typed.

[Art_Gelwicks] Yes…but typing and core computer literacy should be considered a basic skill.

[JohnMartin] What if I don’t like writing, what is my option then?

[Jason] Art: I couldn’t agree more.

[Jason] Or if I …prefer…. speaking out loud?

[Art_Gelwicks] A well rounded individual should be able to communicate effectively in a number of medium.

[dave] agreed

[Jason] Or…at least be exposed to a number of medium

[erin] i’m not arguing for anarchy. many options exist between anarchy and fascism.

[Jason] Or…be challenged to work inside of a number of medium

[Art_Gelwicks] Many bloggers can’t speak worth a darn.

[Art_Gelwicks] (And you should see their handwriting!)

[dave] erin. are you arguing for anarchy?

[JohnMartin] What would be considered basic skills for the 21st century citizen?

[Jason] I guess I wonder, Erin, what your practical world looks like…

[JohnMartin] Awww, Jeff!!!!

[Jason] We talk about choice but we rarely define what that means practically….

[Art_Gelwicks] tYPING wITHOUT thE cAPS lOCK oN sHOULD bE a bASIC sKILL.

[Art_Gelwicks] Suck it up.

[Jason] wHAT dO yOU mEAN?

[Jason] 🙂

[dave] *whip*

[scott] Thanks Jeff in Ann Arbor

[dave] enough of the caps lock

[Jason] OR EVEN IN ALL CAPS….THAT’S BASIC TOO

[Art_Gelwicks] 😛

[erin] allowing student input doesn’t mean we’re going to cut them loose totally.

[Art_Gelwicks] Jeff in Ann Arbor…good job as always!

[Jason] What does it mean, then? What does the practical lesson look like?

[dave] *whip* *whip*

[Art_Gelwicks] You can count that one, Barbara.

[erin] it means considering what student think. not what a teacher thinks they should think.

[Jason] I repeat…that is a nice way to argue in a platitude, but what does the practical lesson look like?

[JohnMartin] They can live with it

[barbara] i am being practical

[JohnMartin] This is good stuff

[erin] that’s the point – you can’t make a generalization like that.

[dave] yes. this is good.

[erin] i can’t say that any one way works for everybody.

[barbara] right

[dave] right

[Jason] How about demonstrating one way? I want to see this practically.

[Art_Gelwicks] These things need to be sponsored by Starbucks.

[scott] This was brilliant, thanks everyone!!

[erin] okay, here you go.

[Jason] sweet 🙂

[dave] cheers all… have a good rest of your day scott

[erin] a high school english ap teacher requires certain books be studied duringthe course of the semester.

[erin] but also provides a list of other books that may be substituted upon consultation with the teacher.

[Art_Gelwicks] All brainstorm…all the time…24/7

[erin] and allows students to bring books not on the list to the teacher for consideration.

[JohnMartin] Do we get t-shirts for this?

[Jason] So, no book is required? Just books?

[Art_Gelwicks] Dave’s a big meanie.

[dave] tshirts are in your email account

[JeffLebow] We gotta get Tshirts

[JohnMartin] Oh yeah, forgot that

[dave] yes. i am.

[JohnMartin] Where’s the logo?

[Art_Gelwicks] Wasn’t that the language with the turtle?

[erin] i said at the beginning: certain books are required.

[JohnMartin] Remember that technology is the means not the end

[JeffLebow] And the 24/7 brainstorm channel may not be so far away…. all we need are lots of webcast literate hosts

[Art_Gelwicks] But if they use a paper book or an e-text it doesn’t matter, right?

[JohnMartin] Sometimes even I forget that

[Jason] Well, based on your argument, that would be wrong. Any mandatory requirement is “teacher-centered”

[erin] no, the lack of respecting student input is teacher centered.

[Jason] It’s Saturday night? 🙂

[Art_Gelwicks] Don’t forget the chat room crew!

[scott] Sunday afternoon 😉

[Jason] But, based on what you say above…you are arguing that I wouldn’t be respecting student opinion if I choose a book

[JohnMartin] booyahh

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Sorry scott I need to remember all my audience.

[JohnMartin] Deep breaths barbara

[JohnMartin] TMI

[scott] Great sign-off Jeff

[Jason] If a student doesn’t like a book that I assign, shouldn’t that mean choice, under your argument?

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Good night all it’s been something special.

[erin] no, you don’t have to allow all choice or no choice.

[Art_Gelwicks] 😀

[JohnMartin] Night Jeff

[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Thanks Scott, I look forward to speaking live again some day.

Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor has left the chat.

[Jason] What is the bright line for that? At what point are you paying “enough” attention to student opinion on their learning?

[Jason] (BTW, I am playing devil’s advocate here…I give a lot of choice with my students, maybe not as much as Erin would argue is

[Jason] good, but…)

[erin] bleh, my headset’s not working. can i call the number still?

[JeffLebow] sure

[Jason] whoa!

[JohnMartin] There she is

[Art_Gelwicks] No good on the skype. Dave’s gonna get yanked through the phone.

[JohnMartin] Way to go Erin

[Jason] Hi Erin! 🙂

[scott] Barbara keeps gettin getting interupted. That’s not cricket. ;(

[dave] you’re right scott

[dave] my bad

[Jason] I require that every “paper” be typed….not daily assignment like things….

[JohnMartin] PPV – King of the ETT Ring

[JohnMartin] How is this different for K-12 than for higher ed?

[Jason] but, part of the point is that we are TEACHING the interaction with the technology

[JohnMartin] But the student is usually frustrated because they can’t use these technologies

[JohnMartin] So many of our students live this stuff

[JohnMartin] Maybe not Blackboard/WebCT but the tools for communicating

[barbara] not all john

[barbara] not all

[Jason] then it is even more important that we expose students to it

[JohnMartin] True not all students but more and more every day

[barbara] aaargh! who says?

[JohnMartin] My experience with the students I encounter at PSU and those that I worked with during my time in K-12

[Jason] i do. 🙂 sorry but i am a professional educator and these are technologies that i use along with speaking, and listening and

[timothy_mckean] Barbara, I tihnk that John may be reffering to yournger students…

[Jason] writing and reading and small group and large group communication and…..

[JohnMartin] No it’s not scientific but if it is occuring in rural NH – it’s likely to be occuring elsewhere

[JohnMartin] I have students who come to me frustrated with the fact that their professors won’t accept electronic submissions,

[Jason] Oh, and so does the State of Montana. 🙂 I have technology standards that I am expected to integrate in my class, along with

[Jason] my social studies content.

[JohnMartin] There are those as well

[JohnMartin] Why is teaching separate from communicating?

[JohnMartin] We’re not talking a dating service here, we’re talking about discourse

[Jason] snowing here too: http://www.carroll.edu/about/webcam/index.cc

[Jason] 🙂

[JohnMartin] I want snow!

[JohnMartin] By board is lonely

[Jason] i want it to go away 🙂

[JohnMartin] Send it to me!!!

scott has left the chat.

[Jason] okay, my wife is starting to make the sad eyes at me…i’m going to take off. GREAT discussion tonight folks…thank you for

[Jason] the intelligent debate

[JohnMartin] 4 8 15 16 23 42

[Jason] hee hee

[Art_Gelwicks] Thanks a bunch Jason!

[Jason] adios!

[JohnMartin] Mine went to bed in disgust

guest-0478 has joined the chat.

[dave] i love that guest guy

[Art_Gelwicks] Mine’s been alseep for 2 hours. Wrote me off a while ago.

[JohnMartin] She’s thinks I’m having an online affair 😉

Jason has left the chat.

[guest-0478] how do you message directly to someone in the chatte roome?

[dave] you are john

[dave] carefully

[JohnMartin] use /msg username

[JohnMartin] But send a non-flame test first!!!

[dave] barbara are you accusing us of negligence?

[barbara] just you

[barbara] 🙂

[dave] lovely to chat with you as always barbara… too many people who think agreeing with people is some kind of virtue

[JohnMartin] group think?

[JohnMartin] Me too barbara

[barbara] and you aren’t negligent

[timothy_mckean] constant assessment isa HUGE part of teaching.

[JohnMartin] So Barbara, do you have a blog?

[JohnMartin] Just wondering if you post on these thoughts

[timothy_mckean] Barbara give me an interesting idea.. is there a difference between teaching our students and teach our coleagues…

[timothy_mckean] maybe somthing for another show?

[JohnMartin] Should there be a difference?

[timothy_mckean] I think so..

[timothy_mckean] How do you introduce or persuade other teachers to look at technologies…

[guest-0478] Who is the guy talking (who talked to the superintendant recently)?

[timothy_mckean] with kids you can use the tech to teach core content…

[JohnMartin] The same way we persuade our students, we model!

[dave] twas art gelwicks

[timothy_mckean] I think it’s great when faculty get excited about somthing personally first.. tn hethey begin to find…

[timothy_mckean] appliactions in the classroom.

[JohnMartin] I agree, but where do they first encounter something to get excited about

[timothy_mckean] from us?

[JohnMartin] As an tech, I see my job as providing resources that they can choose to employ

[JohnMartin] I try not to prescribe unless asked

[timothy_mckean] I guess that’s the question… do we have a roale cuheerncisng othto er ten ciniflnsider tech

[JohnMartin] Assuming they aren’t trying to do what Barbara just suggested, then I might save them some pain

[timothy_mckean] that was messy… sorry

[JohnMartin] No worries

[timothy_mckean] I can’t even tell what I wrote

[JohnMartin] Sounds like my kids

[JohnMartin] NOPE

[JohnMartin] Tell her to read your blog

[JohnMartin] Yup

[JohnMartin] I haven’t named names yet Dave 😉

[dave] 🙂

[JohnMartin] It was nice knowing you DAve

[dave] indeed

[JohnMartin] I gotta go teach tomorrow

[dave] cheers

[JohnMartin] Sorry I couldn’t contribute more, my mic for my cell seems to have died

[JohnMartin] New mic virus?

[JohnMartin] I do worry sometimes that we exclude

[JohnMartin] Me too, good luck tomorrow – my class will be listening to the live cast tomorrow

Art_Gelwicks has left the chat.

[JohnMartin] You are welcome, thanks for everything

timothy_mckean has left the chat.

[guest-0478] Good stuff, thanks everyone!

[JohnMartin] G’night

[barbara] thank you for another exciting evening… I now why my kids like watching the WWF

Leave a comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

css.php